Okay, I'll concede that "deal with it" was a bit harsh, however, I will NOT concede that there is proof of God. I reiterate that I do in fact believe in a God (of sorts) and I certainly do not fault others for believing whatever it is that they want, but there is not proof. There may be some evidence for God, just as there is some evidence against God, but evidence alone does not constitute proof. And quite honestly, I respect everyone here to much (although I really haven't had any interaction with Canuck before tonight... but his/her association with PSC get him/her points with me right there) to assume you don't know the difference between evidence and proof. If there was concrete proof of God, this thread would have been dead 20 pages ago.

Besides, my issue wasn't with Cannuck at all: it is with the person who developed a website that seems to insist that the existence of a deity is necessarily predicated upon moral absolutism and moral absolutism is defined by said arguer as molestation with the motivation of "fun." Once you begin adding conditions to the action (the action being molestation,. the condition being that it is for no other purpose than the molesters entertainment), the absolute falls apart. Absolutism requires that an action be wrong REGARDLESS of the conditions attached to it. I think we can all agree that molestation is wrong, I think there MIGHT be conditions under which it may be the lesser of evils. Not probable conditions, mind you, but conditions none the less. (For instance, the ticking time bomb argument that we so often hear in connection with the ethics of torture. If you could convince a terrorist to give up a bomb set to kill a million people by abusing his child, is it okay? I don't know the answer - I'm, quite honestly, not comfortable contemplating such a situation. But if one wanted to, I suppose that the argument could be made to abuse this child to save a million lives.)

..and I don't use smileys often.
LOL...Dear Creatrix..the developer of that website is indeed.....Our own Dear Canuk.
I understand your position. I understand what Canuk has postulated, and am able to agree with it. I am sorry that I am unable to present his position in any clearer form. I can hint at it sideways though. The King's wearing his new clothes, but to most everybody he appears to be strutting around nekked.

NEKKED'S o.k.....they had that in the bible... ...well.. i had one with pictures...like ya'll did'nt know that

What if when you die....There is nothing????....you just no longer exsist in any form or shape.....but on the brite side.....it's better than hell

YES! That's exactly where I want to go!

I hope that there is nothing.

One word
WORMFOOD

Amen Brother

oops.

Well, then... (and I admit that this is an over-used argument against the existence of an omnipotent and well-intended God),

If God is all-powerful, then He could eliminate evil. I know free will comes into this one, so lets just say he would let humans be as evil as they choose, and limit the argument to "acts of God." He could do away with cancer, AIDS, MS, Lou Gehrig's disease, Cerebral Palsy, Down's Syndrome, autism, and a whole host of other horrific things that would not interfere with free will, but He chooses not to.

Back to moral absolutism, if letting people suffer is bad, then allowing those diseases to ravage humanity for the whole of human history is bad, thereby disproving the idea that God is good.

For the record, though, the moral absolutism argument is just as flawed here as it was in Canuck's argument. I'm just throwing it out there.

why in heck are you people working so hard to deny God?
You think that the cosmos splattered some genetic mud in such a way that we as humans are thinking, loving creating beings... you think that came from some ooze that randomly happened?

The work that people go to to actually deny that a creator smarter than us, is alive and working in the cosmos is mind boggling.. I know wars and all sorts of atrocites have been comitted in the name of religion.
God allows all those diseases and horrors because we learn something at least he hopes from all that chaos. And who knows that we aren't reincarnated over and over to atone for a past... so the universe just is as it is but I don't deny that something made us.

In my own selfishness I can't imagine ever not seeing my father and my grandmother who passed on years before. I can't fathom that those wonderful souls are just off into nothingness... I think somehow we will see them somewhere after this life.

well, manic d, for starters, I'm not denying God. I'm conceding the possibility that there is not God despite believing in such an entity. Or, rather, conceding that no evidence to support my belief exists.

But that said, just because I WANT to see departed loved ones - just because I don't wish to believe that I won't - doesn't necessarily mean that I will.

I mean, people say we are too complex to have not been designed, but isn't God pretty darned complex? Too complex for us to fully fathom? So who designed God?

i think that my beliefs come from my experiences working with terminally ill people. I just have seen too many uncanny things to be explained away scientifically. There are just things we can't comprehend as you say .

I don't think we are meant to remember where we came from -that "nothingness" -just think if you had to remember all the past grievances of things done to you ... or to carry that burden around of what you did. You would be incapacitated.

At times some people have been given a gift to see things momentarily of things not explainable. Children have this ability. But I won't bore you with my personal past. lol.
Let's hope that this is just not it. I don't have a clue why I was put on this earth but I do know at times it's been painful emotionally and physically . Peace.

I'm inclined to agree with you, manic. But I tend to think that these "unexplainable" things that it's very fashionable right now for scientist to deny outright will one day be explained and validated by science. I think that the nature of existence is such that a physical presence must be there for it to exist. People often point to emotions and thought as a way of denying that, but if you think about it, thought and emotions, too, are the result of complex biochemical interactions. I tend to think that it's that "God Spot" on the brain that has allowed us to evolve because it has made us not content to simply seek food and to procreate, but rather to UNDERSTAND. It makes us wonder.

Remember Oscar the cat? He made the news a few months back because he lived in an LTC facility and had an uncanny ability to predict death. So is Oscar (no, not our Oscar!) "psychic" or do you suppose there is some physical attribute of the soul that he can sense? If there is nothing there - no physical presence - then how can you possibly sense it?

MANIC.. ....it's because they are ALL evil beings.....and in denile oohhhh and Wormfood ...i want to be buried on top of the ground.....because the Buzzards gotta eat.....same as the worms.

You know.....now that AJ has word from the old pope......and i know there is no hell.......i may be creamated.......i just did not want to be creamated before because, i did'nt see Any since in burning twice. ....you know the saying Screw them all but 6....(pallbearers)....that would enable me to drop that to 1......now my dilima is.....which 5 am i going to knife in the back. .....this religious stuff sure has it's problems.

Wonder if you can choose the afterlife you want from all the other religions.....hmmmmmm....the 72 virgin thing is looking like the ticket to have.....but then if i become a Catholic.....they have Purgotory....which now that i think about it.....i maybe in Now.......shit???.....wonder when i died.

My big thing is this.....If by some miracle there is this supreme being.....and i grew up in a country that was say....... Bud'est ......if i was always told that BUDDA was the way to enlighten meant...and never had the chance to actually study another religion....but followed every word as close as i could of Budda....Then after dieing find out that Baptist were the ones that got it right.....why would that make me hell bound?

Evil is what We are....i am not saying you are the devil... ...and that does not mean you are going to kill a school full of kids....but you feel in heart what is right and what is wrong....we call it a conscience.....but...now the thing that pushes my button....may not push yours.....take the someone hurting your kids senerio....if someone had your kid at gunpoint...and snapping your fingers would drop the gunman dead.....85% would snap away ....but a select few would not.....but giving the right cercimstance...they would also snap thier fingers too.

That is what i mean by everyone is evil......if you push the right buttons....we convert to violence.....But...GOD said we should not....we must tell the gunman to do as he wishes...and that even if he kills the child...WE forgive him...and would share our house...bread...and any worldly posessions we have....for it is not up to us to judge him....only forgive him.....and pray for him......Ughhhhh we do pray for them.....usually before placeing thier dead ass in the ground.

Also....have you ever heard a person stating that they we posessed by GOD or MICHEAL the arch angel????.....and Charlie Manson don't count......i may not be the smartest...but i know the difference between God and a dumbass...and Charile is way more of a dumbass than A God.....but alot sure get taken by satan and other demons....or Legion....... .....maybe the reason is because evil can take over a body that is already suited for its purpose....or maybe if the angel did it...we would be turning lakes into wine.....you know for the Party. .....well time to go.....the ol' fingers are numb

Ohhhh and oscar is an animal......we once had the same ability..and still do....just forgot how to use it....whens the last time you saw a squirell in a thunderstorm....They know when it's coming....but your understanding and learning took all that away.....you no longer needed it. If the world was to become without technology like we ahve today....alot would die just from not being able to supply themselves with food and shelter and a way to store food....like a rootcellar.....we as a race have forgotten how to build and use the math of ancient ship builders.....why??.....we have CAD programs....So god did not tell Oscar...Oscar already knew.

I read about Oscar. Would that not be a horror to wake up and find that damn cat on your bed... lol knowing you got hours left to live.. maybe though for those folks in the shape they are in it's a blessing.. "oh good that cat of death is here"!

Sad though they gave him a plaque... tons of caring humans have gone the distance to ease suffering without any recognition and Oscar the cat gets a plaque and he could care less. He would rather have more kibble please!

My thinking... I have a cat allergy and If I was in some nursing home and they let cats roam around at will ... well he would probably finish me off his dander... that's probably what it is... these people have deadly cat allergies... and that dumb nursing home doesn't have a clue.

well dew.. all peoples have a deity.. we just call them different things perhaps that may not be wrong well to some here perhaps. But I just never ever went with the God that brings fire and hell. So many poor kids were beat in religious schools and told about the God of Fear.
Who wants a God of Fear, that God just keeps us controlled. The God of Love makes much more sense.

Where I live we have the Body Farm and that doesn't sound half bad. You just lie out in the open and they study how you decompose. I like open spaces.