That isn't abstract. It's two bugs in a forum having a fight over the meaning of "abstract."

I'm sure I'm guilty aswell to some voting-comments you listed above Shaman but from my point of view, I don't think they all are a bad thing to do.
I think it's more the way it's being told what makes the difference.
Giving a personal opinion can be done in a impulsive enthousiastic way, or a objective way.

For example:

"This is the winner for sure"
or
"Personally, this image is the winner for me"

That makes all the difference I think.

"This should have way more votes"
or
"I would have expected this to be higher ranked by now"

It's basicly saying the same thing, without pushing others to vote for it or making them feel like they should have voted.

About comments pointing out flaws and errors, I agree with you.
Again, I'm guilty to that for not always pointing out an error, but I'm working on that, not only to try to help the one who made it, but also to learn to find errors in my own works and getting a trained eye.

I'm not sure if it's going to work in the long run, but personally I find that I'm putting more attention to details in my own works... not much yet.. but little by little
So I can recommend everyone to do it, as long it stays respectable, helpfull and with the purpose to improve an image, not to be picky and trying to find the smallest mistake so you can rub it in the face saying: 'HA! I got ya!' or.. even worse... imitate Miss J.Clark

vote/comments are part of your first thing in there bro, and I will agree they are of a personal matter. And they will always and should always stay up to the voter. But you get 25 for Cripes sake. You'd think the top entries get the first ones, what like maybe 15? then you've got 10 to spread to your loved ones... (if you have those here)

anyway you want to talk about updates...
I'm cool with that.
I think updating to add a shadow under a cat is acceptable. But changing the cat to a dog is unacceptable.
If we cannot update, why have the feature? Either get rid of it entirely like the H2H, so that people know, once you submit, you're done. Or you have to deal with the every so oft cat vote that turns into a dog. I hate that as well. But it doesn't happen that often where something I voted for changes so drastically that I want my vote back.

What I don't hate, is when someone improves their work on the fly. This is a learning site after all, or at least it was when I joined. If it weren't for the update feature, I would have never learned anything here. my 2¢

Sometimes I think my big mouth, and the fact that I'm not afraid to speak my mind, gets me in more trouble than its worth around here. But you all should know me by now.

If I comment, this needs fixing. I will 95% of the time at least offer up some sort of solution, unless I think the chopper is better than me, then I'll leave it to them to figure it out.

I somewhat agree with lurker though. It would be nice if no one could update, cause I think the work over all would improve, like 90% of the H2H entries. But then I also disagree because of the fact that w/o editing you don't learn as much.

Maybe a compromise. If its a Prize contest (we still have those?) No editing should be allowed. But if its just a general contest, those should stay open to edit tweaks.
Hows that for compromise?

I do think there is a potential for unfairness here. I would be open to ONE upgrade (or, for those of you keen on baseball, THREE upgrades) but to have continual updates as you are coached by other top leading members is kinda weird and doesn't feel fair - unless those "guides'" go and give all the other contestants the same attention and coaching.

I know this happened recently, and it was an interesting experiment. And the final image was very cool. But once it was over I thought about it and I think it opens up a very slippery slope here... "friends" will get help and coaching towards a win, others will not get the coaching (maybe because they don speeka da Henglish much good - or because they are old and feeble (anyone ever see SPLODGE get tutoring here? ) )

well tadams i think we are talking very peacefull here, i am glad this goes like this way, just changing feelings and opinions about art and other stuff

Yeah I guess your right Shamdude, but lately there has been so many updates made that the original work that many voted for is lost. Would be cool if there was a cut off for updates say at day 2
and then that's it for updates.

It is a part of the site and a good learning tool as well, Im one of the few that don't update once entered but I do make adjustments on my images in my files on my pc with text for the reason why. Yes Im very anal when it comes files with PS.

Blue - you is ANAL and any given time. And I won't say any more on THAT subject.

BUT I do also agree (back on topic here) that I hate to take away any tool that helps people learn more about chopping. I think that idea that we have SEALED contests (prize contests being one potential SEALED contest) where you get to enter your image and THAT's IT. No updates. And then there could be LEARNING / COACHING contests, where it is ALL about learning and tweaking and drinking BEER. (sorry- don't know how that bit about beer got in there )

Too much reading for my ADD brain (and I'm at work). Just wanted to pop in an note that I agree with Sean-san. I've voted (and sadly snarkily commented in the vote) on chops done by people I think are assholes. I personally try to let the chop stand on it's own and vote or comment on the chop itself. Granted I'm human and have let emotion affect this from time to time.

The one thing I think is annoying (and blurker pointed this out and the thread that discusses it previously) is the "all source except the parts that aren't" notes. That just bugs me to see those author notes. It's like going to a fast food restaurant and having them tell you your meal is "all beef except the parts that are maggot or rat".

Agreed. I would add that people should not be allowed to update during anon contests. Not a single update. Why? Because it forces people to think twice before submitting, and we get to see how lazy or dedicated the artist really is. You're done. No updates until after the contest. Tough luck. No second chances. Quit crying. Move on.

I too cringe when I see "winner" posted on an entry before the contest is over. Whether intentional or not it is poor etiquette. Any language that would suggest the placement (top three) is also in poor taste. Comments are suppose to be about the work, not predictions and influence in some "Fantasy Chopping" game.

As for "undervoted" I'm on the fence. Maybe because I see it written on my entries more than I see "winner." Undervoted to me means, "take another look." It doesn't mean "take another look; this is the winner; what's wrong with you?" There are many times when entries are undervoted because the lemmings run for the boring idea that has been done over and over and over. Certainly late entries are undervoted, but you get what you get.

Abstract is... It depends on how you define "is."

How about if you update your image after the contest has started, you lose the last 5 votes. ? If your update is that good, then you'll gain more votes than you lost. ?

Yes, you and the others are peaceful for the moment, but those bugs in the painting -- they're fighting to the death!

A little off topic but about art.
I go to lots of art openings around my city, I just like looking at art. I once went to an opening of youth abstract art and was bewilder with the art on display. The gallery was owned by Ken Donn, I was looking at an image that was just a canvas painted all black. Two people in suits and with clip boards were making comments about the depth and meaning and interpretation of artists concept.

Once they left I said under my breath that it was just a canvas painted bloody black. A gentleman next to me said in a low voice I was right and it was a Ken Done guinea pig frame, he likes to put up paintings with microphones behind them to see what the "art world" thinks. I smiled for weeks after that.

Ok back on subject now

oh my this getting a long thread...my head is spinning just to read through it..haha

With remarks like, undervoted, winner, etc... I think just let it be. Hell I am guilty (if ya can speak of guilty anyways) of saying that stuff many times. Is it such a bad think to say...I don't think so. Everything that you write and that others can read, will/can influence...also constructive comments can influence.

Art is simply put "in the eye of the beholder"
off course most of the good artist (also abstract) can paint all sorts of thing realistic, abstract, impresionism, etc... They have skill and now what they are doing, composition, colors, etc... This you can learn via books, schools or you are just born with them. What Rey is saying I agree you can judge art also on a technical side, how it is executed...but in the end art is..you like it or you don't like it. It's all about emotion what you like.
There is a monkey that paints....and sells them for shit loads
Also last year there was a documentairy about a 4 year old girl that did abstract paintings...sold for shit loads
Question is are the really good paintings (ers)? dunno decide for yourself but the thing is we are humans and we tend to follow...follow the big herd. following happens here aswell ofcourse cuz it part of life and don't think you can eliminate such a thing unless you make everything by the rules....but then I reckon no one would have fun....or fun threads like these

I am blabbering, but in short I think:
- more anonymouse contest maybe every other day
mix it up a bit and solves a couple the issues named here.
- "updating" think it's good when you update only when it is an update from the original not something entirly different. It's a learning progress so why not update.
- prize contest? nah don't care about them and shouldn't be too many...cuz than you need more rules otherwise the threads will be chuckfull and I like it the way it is...entertaining!

Damn this site is fun where else can you get this much of entertainment for a few bucks! better than pay per view haha!

that was more than enough from me
chrss!

yes they really look like bugs ,