I can't even fathom how it could be possible.. let alone fathom how someone could think that it is impossible to not believe.

Don’t worry about arc. The people that get most riled up about these threads, are the ones with the weakest arguments, he just tries to hide it with ad homs.

Well, first off, I’m not trying to prove anything, I am merely exposing the suppression of truth. Secondly, you obviously care enough about this thread to visit it, and keep posting in it.

Well, since you call the arguments stupid, you obviously appeal to some laws of logic by which you make this determination. Problem is, you never tell us how you account for those laws (because you can’t).

Arc, is molesting children for kicks absolutely morally wrong, or could it be right? Simple question. You just don’t like how your worldview forces you to answer.

Problem is, without an absolute standard, they can say that you are the one who is menatlly ill, and you would have no argument against them.

Well arc, it’s right here. If you say that molesting children is not absolutely morally wrong because some people don’t think it is, that would be like saying 2 + 2 does not absolutely equal 4 (in base 10 mathematics) because some kids get that answer wrong on a math test. How people behave, or what they think, has exactly nothing to do with whether or not absolute moral laws actually exist.

Lots of people post their outside interests, but it seems that this outside interest is one that touches too close to home for you. In the famous words of Shakespeare "Methinks thou dost protest too much." Besides, it was a fellow PSCer who was generous enough to redesign the site for me (BroChris), and we also were looking for input here.

Sure you could, probably just as good as your argument above.

Read the thread, it looks like people are enjoying it, and it would also appear that you, in fact, are the least welcome person here.

he doesn´t THINK that caf... he knows it... it´s an undeniable absolute universal truth... you see? you can´t deny an undenieable absolute universal truth because it is undeniable... and absolute... and universal... you see, trying to deny that is like going against logic... cause you can´t say the fire is wet, ya see... it´s not logical... so, it´s impossible to deny an undeni... oh crap... this is way too much bullshit... what next? ya gonna try to convince us the Grand Canyon was formed in a week by a catostrophic biblical event?

http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,783829,00.html

Forgive me.. I have not read all three years of this thread but,

Are you saying that because people have developed similar moral codes around the world it would prove some higher power created them?

if you cut your finger does it hurt? Are you going to stop cutting it?
If someone steals from you does it hurt? Are you going to try to stop them from doing it?
If someone hurts a loved one does it hurt? Are you going to stop them from doing it?

Moral code was developed over time to stop people from hurting people. there is nothing mystical about that.

Welcome to the fray Caf Tell me, could the universe have both existed, and not existed, before there were humans around with the ‘ability to think’ about , and ‘share conclusions’ regarding, the law of non-contradiction?

This is EXACTLY why one needs to invoke God, to presuppose the invariance of logic. The atheist has exactly zero basis for proceeding on the assumption that logic WILL NOT (or even will probably not) change.

No, but He is universally experienced, some just suppress the truth about that experience.

Please give an example of how a law of logic could be ‘formulated’ and ‘judged’ without presupposing the validity of logic.

Ok I quit. He broke out the "If a tree falls with nobody around to hear it" theory.

How do you know? Did you use logic to make that determination?

How do you know? Did you use logic to make that determination?

Riiiiiiiiiight. You attempt to use logic in your posts, but you cannot justify its foundation.

You could, and if that is what you believed, I’d be happy to take you up on it.

By what laws of logic do you make that determination, how do you account for those laws, and why do they necessarily apply to my claim?
It is my claim that God is the necessary precondition to logic, by the impossibility of the contrary. If you ever posit the contrary that you hold to, I will be glad to address it. (And again, not holding my breath).

Um, that's my point

No problem, it’s a long read

Nope, just that absent an absolute standard, there can be no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ behaviour, just moral PREFERENCE.

Why should people not hurt other people though, according to your worldview?

@ Arc,
The funny thing Arc is you choose a scientific book thats sold at a public park to argue about. You don't like that he drew a different conclusion than evolution, but his science is not only good, but repressed, and should be out there.
You seem to be proposing that scientific data SHOULD be repressed if it does not fit the state supported theory.
Are you even familiar with geologic data concerning the Grand canyon?

I don't 'feel' that it is impossible, I know that it is impossible. The accounts, or lack thereof, on this forum, merely support what I already know to be true.

I am sure people want to hurt eachother. Moral code was developed to create laws to keep people from actually doing it. There is no example of an absolute standard in reguards to human nature.

Please answer the question, why should people not hurt other people, according to your worldview?

I did...


Yes society as a whole moves in similar directions, and yes it is human to want to protect your community.. and yes it is human to want to get ahead.

That is not an ABSOLUTE Standard. If one person (which there are many) could care less about those values then it is not absolute.