SOT, you obviously really want my attention, because you keep bringing up my name.

So, here I am. What do you want? I'm listening.
Please be specific and concrete.

What is it I want of you? There are a few things, but only one that pertains to the topic I wish to discuss. I will follow my own stated request and stick to the topic I have chosen.

What I want from you is a response regarding my statements that today's voters are easily moved to click that precious vote button when they happen upon a beautiful image created, for the most part, by another someone other than the member who posted it.

And a real response, not the typical crap such as "I can vote for what I want" garbage that we all know (yes, even I am aware of this) is the bottom line.

Do you have any thoughts about how an image that was carefully thought out and created, sometimes lacking the skill we all are striving for but none the less a good effort, is blown away by an image that was created by another member, not by skill or effort, but by the sheer luck of finding a fantastic image drawn or photographed by someone else somewhere else on the internet? (was that a run-on sentence?) Anyway, this "better" image that has been found and submitted becomes the source of the idea, creates the colors, creates the composition and only requires some small portion of the daily image be place somewhere reasonable within to call it an entry. This image is praised for its magnificance and beauty yet without the addition of our beloved daily image, it was just as magnificant and beautiful if not more so.

Do you think images as I just described should get more votes than the one born of an original idea and peiced together sometimes from many many sources as best as possible to get that idea across?

I don't know if that is specific and concrete enough but I'm sure you will tell me either way.

SwordOfTruth, I’ll take.

I’d like to say this first --> I think many of your points are valid but I disagree with the way you went about commenting. And, if criticism is positive and constructive you shouldn’t need to create an alias to defend it. Just wanted to let you know where I stand on that but it’s the past, let’s get onto the discussion at hand.

As you have, I will state my intention. You appear to be viewing vote worthiness mainly by technical ability, I’m not sure how heavily you weigh artistic/creative impression but I suspect it has influence as well. I’ll stick mainly to the technical side of things. That being said, I intend to learn what you look for in an entry so that I may pick up areas that I am lacking, or things that may not have even crossed my mind in the first place. I’m sure many other people here are looking for the same things in an entry that you are. I doubt that I’ll vote in accordance to your seemingly strict criteria once I finally earn the right to vote though.

Perhaps we should create a list of tech abilities to look for in an entry?? I’ll start, anyone can feel free to add as I’ll just scratch the surface and edit as I may not use correct terms. SOT, if you have another method to teach us what a deserving vote is (in your opinion of course), by all means, go with that.

- clean edges on cutouts
- proper perspectives
- proper shadowing/lighting




I’m not sure if you really meant for me to answer these questions or not:

but I will. I don’t know, I don’t know and No. I’m too new.
You ask that last question as though you might know the answer…

Finally, use my entries as examples if you want to. There’s only two right now and don’t expect much from them but criticize all you want, that’s why I joined the site.

Fair enough. Here is how I see it.

This site is called Photoshopcontest.com. There are no formal guidelines stating how the entries must be created--all we're asked to do is use the provided source photo to create another image, using Photoshop. There are no rules regarding what images may be used in addition to the source, except that they should not be copyrighted.

We are not told we must vote for the entry that represents the most work, or even the one that has the most technical merit. We are given 25 votes per day do use as we will. If we want to use a vote to encourage a promising newcomer, we can. If we want to use a vote to bolster a friend, we can. If we want to cast a vote because somebody incorporated a Star Trek image, well, that's our prerogative, too. Heck, if we want to vote for all the purple images in a given day, we can do that, too.

Trying to force your voting sensibilities upon another person is vain, presumptuous and a waste of time. If you want to improve the overall quality of the posts, here, then write a tutorial. Provide constructive criticism. Help those who need advice to improve. Don't nag people. Honestly--has nagging ever worked on anybody?

Yes, it's frustrating watching the contests, at times. Often the voting patterns are surprising. But it's also fascinating. The votes reflect the mood of the people here, and that mood changes from day to day. On the days when I don't like the way the voting is going, it helps to remind myself that there is always another contest tomorrow. Always.

Hm.. was that what you meant by the "I can vote for what I want" garbage?

Let's see.. do I think that an image constructed from a beautiful source image should get more votes than an image pulled together from several less-than-beautiful ones? Not necessarily. But remember, there are a lot of steps in the process. What if it took a person four hours to find just the right image? And what if that person spent another four masking and blending the source image into it, so it fit just right? If the final effect is beautiful, I see no reason to withhold votes just because the source art was nice to begin with. As I said, nothing says we have to vote for the post that was the most work.

I also think that many of us have a pretty good eye, and can recognize when something's just been slapped together. We also know that often the images that look like the most flawless represent the most work--hence all the comments that say, "nice integration." And if we don't know it, we will, soon.

Come to think of it, maybe you're mistaken when you see an entry and assume somebody just found a nice piece of source art and slapped the daily picture into it. Maybe some of us really *are* that good.

Perfect chops should look effortless, right?

It's not that I disagree totally with what SOB... sorry, I mean "SOT" is saying. I do think that he/she/it (after all a sword is an "it", right) has a point about people needing to know the difference between making an image mainly out of a nice stock photo, or making a fantastic manipulation or merging several pics into one flawlessly.

That said, I do disagree with how he/she/it went about bringing it up. As bluefist said though, each to his own.

As it happens, I didn't vote for Patre on this ocasion, and I would consider Patre a friend. In fact I didn't vote for it because I thought the perspective was off, not because he had merged the featured pic with a googled image. After all, 90% (or more) of the images here are a mixture of the featured pic and one or more googled images. I really don't see what the problem is. I would only ever have an issue with it if someone was trying to deliberately fool people into thinking that they had done more work than they actually had. Patre has never tried this sort of trick.

I would have left a comment in Patre's post to tell him about the perspective issue (he will tell you that I have left comments in the past), but since SOT had already left more than enough info, I didn't feel it was necessary. I just didn't vote.

SOT, I feel it's good of you to bring up this issue (about thinking a bit more about how worthy a pic is), but man, try to be a bit more constructive about it.

Zed!! You may sit at my table any time and for as long as you like. Thank you.
I will try and be as specific and concrete as I can regarding your images.
(maybe this way Cynn will pay attention too)

First, please understand I look, think and speak in laymen's terms when viewing and image or discussing "image editing". I do not do it professionally nor have the desire to do so. It is a hobby of mine and I enjoy doing it. I also understand it is not the aspiration of most site members to produce technically perfect images. But I have been here a great deal of time and would like to tell you what I think.

With that said, I'd like to take a step back and first discuss what kind of friendly contest we are all competing in.

Is it not a competition of our creativity? Not of someone elses. Is it not a competition of who can take the daily image and make it something different and do it better than the next? (lets forget for a moment, those naysayers who passionately believe they are here to just have some fun or maybe learn and show off their work without regard for votes, shall we) Be aware that I also realize that while competing we all hope to learn by experience and through some support from the other members. I have enjoyed the learning almost as much as the increase in votes for my own images over time.

THIS, this idea about what the contest has become is where I am having the most trouble these days. People have become lazy with their entries and depend on someone elses source image to create their idea, to create the overall lighting, color, shading, perspective, FOCUS, etc. Members have become lazy and fall for these professional images with all the technical aspects we look for when voting and aren't paying attention to how the daily image was manipulated. Sure the daily image is in there, but who cares how small or if the image would still be what it is without it.

Lets take the image that I commented on from Patre in the clouds contest. For me, If you take away the clouds, the image still has the same look, feel, appeal as it did with the clouds. Come on now, lets be honest and no offense to Patre, seriously.

If given the time, I can find a ton of this type of image in most contests yet they continue to receive a ton of votes. Votes for what? Someone elses image? This is what I see as the root of our problem.

Before we discuss the actually make up of what makes a good entry, I'd like some feedback about what others think the contests are meant for. Zed? anyone?

shit. that will teach me to walk away after a comment has been made, then reply only two find to nice additions....well, I will let that stand and respond accordingly...

Is it not possible that someone who dislikes a comment on their post defend themself?
Whether you like someone using an alias or not has nothing to do with the subject here.
What we DO have is someone who is obviously frustrated and has
some valid reasons for being frustrated.
SOT, Your right. You'll never win the argument, but You are right and also have every right
to comment on what you see.
Please feel free to continue to do so.
How someone votes is totally up to them. Even when they vote "un-fairly"
that is still their choice and within the rules, eh.
Many of the people that found your comments unsettling are folks that vote for one-
another no matter what they post. I hardly find their sensitivity to your remarks
convincing.
Lastly, I can say to you that using an alias is uneccesary--
altercations in forums and comments just do not transfer to less votes.
Three megabite gif's however DO transfer to less votes, but that problems been solved.
More is the pity.
Oops, one more thing-all this stuff with folks using great stock images,
glueing a cut out from the source on,
and getting the votes for it???
LAME, My brothers, very very lame.

Cynn

yup. but thanks for typing all that.


I am not trying to force anything on anyone. I'm a sane individual that understands my views may not be the same as someone else. I am on a mission to understand some things. Things like what people are thinking when the vote. What was it they saw? Do they fully understand what they see? That is all. You, on the other hand are trying to shut my discussion down. Are you not also trying to force YOUR voting sensibilities upon me?


And hope that maybe just one member will read what I'm typing and think about it for tomorrows image. Rather than what I believe is the norm these days which is run to a stock image site and find one that will allow for bits of the starting image to be added without too much trouble.



Nor do I. What I have been talking about all this time is the average post in any days contest, not the eight hour effort that is very well done. There will be extremes in each case Cynn. Lets stick with what we both know, in our hearts, is an average entry.



precisely! we should be voting for the best work done for that day by a member, not the best work of a professional photographer who publishes their stuff online. Again, I am not argueing the use of stock images. We all use them. I am speaking of the ones that when you take away what the member has done to the stock image and it still provides the impact necessary to get a vote. This is what I think people don't see.



Not if people are continually "offered encouragement" with a vote that tells them how beautiful their image search ended up as.


not a chance.


Perfect ones should, but do they have to be the most technically sound? Not as far as I'm concerned. But they should be the best with regard to a combination of idea, use of daily image, use of stock images, and technical knowhow. The winning combination changes daily.

ps. holy shit, these comments are getting long. a good discussion so far I think. lets not give up.

Irishstu and Scion, thanks for joining in. I will respond later as, at this moment, more important duties require my attention.

and yes, if you must know it's a damsel in distress

in case anyone wants to know i've got this figured out completely..ok follow me on this...There's absolutely no Freakin way anyone could possibly get this concerned about the voting if he/she was getting votes--so i've deduced that this person's gotta be an absolutely terrible chopper no matter who it is--even people who aren't generally well liked get votes if they do a good chop--i know this for a fact--so the idea that this pathetic being is getting so few votes as to respond this way tells me he/she would better serve their own cause by uninstalling photoshop and installing something like "The Sims" where they can lord over a fantasy world and dictate their philosophy till hell freezes over---i hear if you put some Sims in a swimming pool and take away the ladder, they swim like rats till they drown..c'mon SOT you've gotta admit you'd dig that--to me you sound like a whining little girl who can't understand why she doesn't get picked for the dodgeball games--you know what?.tough shit.

Hmm.. believe it or not, I do understand what you're saying, SOT. I'm just not seeing the rampant problem you're describing. I guess I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt, and when I see a beautiful post I assume it represents a lot of work.

Over the next few days, indulge me. When you see a post that you feel is simply a stock photo with the featured picture slapped on, put a comment asking to see the artist's source images. I always read comments. That way, that'll flag the posts you're seeing as a problem, and also erase any doubt in my mind whether you're mistaking excellent Photoshop work for stock photography.

Ok?

nice to know you've joined the ranks of the image police Cynn--lord knows you've never slapped together a cut and paste and gotten a few votes tossed your way

=whaps upside the head=

I always work hard on my posts. I just make 'em look easy, is all.

The only thing I've joined is Team OAK. I just want SOT to put his comments where his mouth is.

Textual Overload...

Thanks Supa! The ladies room was fun!

I guess being a chat brat isn't so bad.