Irishstu, thanks for your approval, it is what I most desired

Scionshade, you speak of truths.

Holly9000, I'm not sure what rock you rolled out from under, but you should roll on back. You can't decide if you want to be Mr. Evil or grovel and play nice with everyone to increase your VPP.

Cynn, rather than me ask, I will comment with something like "WOW! IT LOOKS AS IF YOUR IMAGE WAS TOUCHED BY GOD HIMSELF" (or "FANTASTIC USE OF GOOGLE/STOCK IMAGE SITE") and that can be your cue to provide some feedback under that image and you may ask for the source. We'll gamble with your VPP for a bit, Mmmmk?

We'll have to be cautious though, as sometimes these things can be perceived as aggressive and rude and meant to start riots. Might be best to start with "I AGREE WITH SOT!! FANTASTIC!! yet, I wonder. Perhaps we could, if it wouldn't be too much trouble and no offense is taken, get a look at the external sources used for this glorious entry?"

I guess its ok to speak your mind in the forums but not in the comments section of one image or another.

ps Zed, I have not forgotten you.

That's what I thought.

You're a coward and a troll, and we're done.

I apologize if any of my comments are redundant because I've only had time to skim the discussion up to this point, but I do want to respond to this point.

It frustrates me to no end to see a post that is composed primarily of a great found image-- one which the photographer has taken great care to light, compose, etc.-- with just a tiny bit of the PSC pic pasted in, and see it get absolutely flooded with votes along with all kinds of superlative praise. Not saying every great image here is guilty of this, not even a large percentage. It just happens sometimes is all. I personally try not to vote for such posts, because it feels to me like passing off someone else's work as your own.

I'm not in any way suggesting there be any "rules" about image usage (which sources are acceptable to use, or how much of the image can be used). I just think that if someone bases their post on a found great photo they should credit the source. It's at the discretion of the chopper whether he/she wants to cite sources, but I think we're all smart enough to realize when we maybe should... especially when the vote flood comes in and we know well and good that the success is largely due to another's work and aesthetic sense.



Oh, and I keep hearing the defense of the "skill" that goes into spending 4 hours searching for just the right source photo. I'm sorry, but if it takes you 4 hours--or even 30 minutes--to find an acceptable image, you are not skilled at image searching. And it's ridiculous to give people artistic credit for recognizing a great image--simply appreciating great artwork does not a great artist make...

*crawls out of the ladies room.....*passes out.

Emm... no offence, Holly, and I can't speak for the others, but my wife's just a had a baby, and I'm kinda "busy" at the moment. I'll refrain from saying anything else pending your reply...

holly, i just read your nasty reply and i have to say, its nasty.

SwordOfTruth, I now understand your point in this matter. It is about creativity and not skills/abilities as much. As Cynn said, I didn’t see it as a problem. I’ll be watching for what you describe now, entries that ‘don’t change’ when the featured pic is removed. Honestly, I sooo wish I had a digital camera, then I’d always use my own external sources.

You really are self righteous arent you? Don't feel bad if I do not care in the least if YOU and I are done. At least I have opened it to discusson (as grown ups sometimes do) and some people have made some great comments. Comments that have made me think.

Cynn, as hard as it is for you to be an adult and understand that others might see things differently than you, I will try and explain.

Because of my comments (how many? 4 perhaps) that, yes, were not the typical bullshit comments that are zipping around these days, I have been labeled a troublemaker already. If I run around asking people for sources and suggesting they might not have done to much work to their image, YerPalAl has told me he will delete my comments.

He persists in trying to keep order like a 1st grade teacher must in order to keep her classroom an acceptable environment for social interaction and learning. This could be a whole seperate thread itself so I will leave it for later. Some day, YerPalAl, you, Ronni, and a few others that are vocal around these forums will have to wake up and realize that this thread is full of grown adults that are opinionated and able to handle their emotions better than a first grader. Until then, the rest of us who have idea or thoughts we'd like to discuss must wait or present it with a silver lining so as not to hurt little Suzy's feeling.

So you see, It was not a matter of being cowardly or troll like but more a sense of self preservation.

Between your comments and those from Holly9000 (I wish they had not been deleted, as it truely showed the mans intelligence), there has been more aggression in this thread than all of my comments put together. I told YerPalAl this would happen. I hope he sees if for what it is. With that said, I will refrain from responding to your childish aggression for the rest of this thread.

Now I'd like to forget about Cynn and carry on with the discussion at hand...

Yes, I was wondering how long it would take you to misquote me so let me now post that part publicly and correctly:

"Take it to the forums, if you persist in throwing comments I consider likely to provoke a fight in to the comments box on posts I will be forced to remove them. Note: I am not saying you cannot critique posts, but comments trying to engage others in arguments over voting habits, trying to sway voting habits in other words, will not be welcomed."

And I do this because starting an argument on a contest entry is simply not fair to the contestant. If I was seriously trying to clamp down on dessention why would I not censure this thread? That I do not is because THIS is the place for debate on voting practices.



Sorry, it smaks even more of cowardice SOT. Cynn made a perfectly valid suggestion in a spirit of honest debate and, unlike you, I quote her accurately here:

"Over the next few days, indulge me. When you see a post that you feel is simply a stock photo with the featured picture slapped on, put a comment asking to see the artist's source images. I always read comments. That way, that'll flag the posts you're seeing as a problem, and also erase any doubt in my mind whether you're mistaking excellent Photoshop work for stock photography. "

But your reaction showed your true mettle.



Ironically, SOT, I agree with a great deal of what you say you stand for, I just think your logic and methodology to be seriously flawed and counterproductive. Had you started a thread labeled "Are We Voting For Stock Photography Instead Of Chopping?" and went on to explain your concerns I believe the great majority of the members here would discuss the issue rationally with you.

Too bad you didn't really, all this effort might than have gone for something.

OH... that's right! I forgot that the ability to have a valid opinion and contribute to discussion around here is based on how frequently you post images. And having other things going on in your life translates to PSC unworthiness.

Pardon me while my lazy ass gets back to my job.

EJH. no apology necessary, I was a bit long winded with trying to get my point across. Thanks for responding.



It frustrates me too and I have seen others try to comment about this with one image or another only to be attacked more viciously than any comment that was made. It's when I have embarked on this journey of learning and understand in hopes that others will come along.

Regarding the creation of site rules regulating image sources, I whole heartedly agree that there should not be any. We are the creative ones, lets keep it that way.



These images are really easy to spot for some and hard for others. This is where I've said I think some education might be in order. Not just for others, but as the kind hearted and omnipotent Cynn has pointed out, for me too for I am not nearly as perfect as I like to think I am.

What I do first, as I've said before, is remove the daily image from the entry. Then I look to see if it still has the same look, feel and beauty/humor/creativity that was there? If so, then a longer look and maybe holding off on a vote might be in order waiting to see if someone else might use the daily image in a better way. Sometimes, the entries relying on stock images for votes are easy to spot. There is FAR more to the image than necessary to complete the idea.

For example, with out attempting aggression, take a look at the bullets entry by lithunal in yesterdays contest. He states that the starting image is in the bullet. Fine, but the lighting does not match the daily image and the perspective is not the same as the daily image and yet people vote? It does nothing to impress me with his effort. Frankly, like a few have commented there, I do not see the source at all and yet it has 10+ votes. They were duped by a great stock image. I would like to see the source that Lithanaul used on that one but I don't need it to see to know that very minimal effort was used if any at all.



Well said. There are people here who have great stock image sources. I wish I knew where they were. The difference is, some people use a stock image to complete their idea, others use a stock image with a built in idea. I think there is a difference.

Understand that I know there are cases where less is more, or it is a funny post that showed more creativity than others and I like these entries. Again, I am refering to the other, vast majority of the post relying on a stock image to get them votes.

Now I need to find an entry that is a great stock image yet makes good use of the daily image and the daily image is still included in the focal point fo the entry. wish me luck.

YerPalAl, I know you will correct me where I'm wrong so I don't have to ask you to do it. Any comment that I make to an image, that does not start with some sort of feigned praise and end with encouragement will be deemed an attempt to engage others in arguments. This is ridiculous. I did not quote you, I summarized.

Cynn did make a perfectly valid suggestion in a spirit of honest debate and, like her, in the spirit of debate, I offered a different solution. Is that not allowed in a spirited debate? I offered an alternative and she called me a coward and a troll. Great debating skills.



Comment under an image make perfect sense. It adds example to any discussion that is had regarding a particular point. Pointing to general flaws on a whole is lost here in the forums. It's too bad people don't see this. As you have so graciously allowed, I will drag the examples here.



Ironically, many people agree with things that I and others have said.

And Counterproductive to whom? How many PM's have you received that expressed outrage at my comments? 1, 2, 4? there are better than 100 active members on this site I believe and you are forcing the site to bend to your's and a few others inability to let people be who they are. Lets not forget that it was Cynn who brought my comments in to play in this thread. Who are you to say what my intentions were regarding threads and topics. Either way, no matter the approach, I would have been handed the same insults for being my thoughts and views, such as they are, in any manner and you know it.

At any rate, I have succeeded starting a discussion with, aside from a few, good dialog and interest. Forgive me, for I am losing no sleep because you don't like the way I did it.

Get over me, troll. I'm not interested in your attention.

Cynn, present your point or if you already have, then move along. Your additions to this dicussion are far less engaging than most and are not necessary.

I know SOT is an alias who seems to have trouble with spelling and sometimes forgets words all together but, for the most part, they seem to have started a discussion that has been thought out and that has generated some interest.

I'm not allowed to say whether I agree or not with his views but I am am allowed to say he has a right to try and engage others in a discussion such as this.

Fair enough?

Good Morning all! (It's 7am here on the ol Canuck West Coast.

Ok. I want some praise, dammit! I just read all FIVE pages of this thread. I went through various emotions as I did so: anger, amazement, sadness, gladness, and I also now feel somewhat fanatical devotion to the Pope.

I can not cover all the varied points of this thread (and it seems I've missed the Randy Jaunt with Nancers ONCE AGAIN! ) but I will say these few points.

1) Mr. Sword O' Truth - you make some valid points, and you've kept a most level head through all this. One of the commenters here basically said "lots of people who frequent this site have thin skin". This is true. I have been one of them... though it has gotten thinker (mostly around my ears). It is of course your choice in a debate how you choose to address an issue. And I'm not suggesting that you adopt any other way than how you do it. But I have found to work WITH the "truths" (in this case the Truth of the Thin Skinned) on a particular journey is beneficial to the whole of those involved in that journey. In this particular case I have found that a bit of humour and compassion allows those with thinner skins (and sometimes thicker skulls) to hear my case.

2) I'm not a big ALIAS fan - you loose points for that (but that doesn't really have anything to do with the topic here - but I needed to acknowledge that I'd love you to find a "real" face and stand behind it here. (please don't stand behind mine - it is overused as it is!)

3) TO THE POINT: as this discussion has (in one way or another) been going on since I got here, nigh on 1 1/2 years ago... my two (Canadian) cents are this.... since there are no OFFICIAL rules regarding how you use the Sacred Source, and no rules about what other "material" you can use with the Sacred Source (except no penetration or Openly Libidinous Volleyball Playing) then ANYTHING is legally Fair Play. (Though not, perhaps, FAIRE play ) And since there is no Group Concenssuss (Fuck I hate big words that I know but can't spel) on what to do in this area, we must all blindly fumble our way through these murky waters. We seem to need to do it about every two months around here Voicing one's opinion about it in forums does seem to help blow off some steam, but it can also incite discontent with the Thin Skins (see #1above) . Unless one is personally committed to helping people thicken their skin (and some around here seem very committed to that! ) then I personally tend to avoid most VOLITILE threads (as this one at times became) . For me now, I wish to help with the Calming (but not numbing) of this site. We are a VERY mixed bunch of people and we will continue to Think and Vote and Comment and Chew Gum differently. SUMMARY OF THIS POINT: ppphht! yup. uh-huh. oh well. Shut The Fuck Up And Chop, y'all!

4) there is no fourth point

5) The other reason I did this LONG post is to get CHILDISH REVENGE on all those that participated in RUINING MY EYESITE for the next week or so with this VERY VERY VERY LONG AND DRAWN OUT YET COMPELLING THREAD. I will stop typing now. I feel that I have Spenteth mine Load!


P.S. I will now go find Nancers for Animal Sex....