.



why me?

I did weigh in earlier but it's a long weekend and reading this thread is like a full time job.

I did some skimming and here are my thoughts..


First of all, I know it's early in the year but I've made my decision.
Ladies and gentlemen, the 2005 CooCoo for CocoPuffs award for over-reaction goes
to.... holly9000 for the "Hitler-Pol Pot-Colombine Freakout remix".

SOT, the Jews and Cambodians had it easy compared to what Patre had to deal with when you told him his post was pleasing to the eye but perhaps a tad heavy on the stock imagery side.

Now to the topic..

First of all, SOT, I agree with your point here. I think this thread can only serve to better this site if it resonates in the minds of a few people the next time they're composing an image or casting a vote.

I want to ask a question before I proceed. holly's post with the slinky atv received a lot of votes. I don't believe it met your criteria for an image that relied heavily on stock photography yet you expressed surprise at the number of votes it received. I'd like to know why you believe this submission received the number of votes that it did?
(Sorry holly, I'll stop picking on you now)

ok ok..i guess maybe Pol Pot might have been a LITTLE worse truth is i agree with alot of what SOT says myself--(as everyone who ever heard of lostcode knows)but the fact is noone here goes out and tries to plagerize imagery to get votes..but we're out here everyday trying to come up with a decent chop and sometimes we get lazy..i know i do--i know sometimes my posts get more votes than they deserve for the work that went into them..i also know that sometimes they dont--but what i know most of all is this--everyone here is an individual--there are no guidelines as to what good art is..and as a member i should not have to read personal attacks against me..critiques yes--i welcome and ask for those--but plain old mean spirited negativity no--not on my post--take it to pm..or the forum--our post space should be a sacred space in which we can feel safe on a personal level..i truely believe that.I also think if people confined their opinions to the post and stayed away from personal attacks it would foster an atmosphere of a free exchange of ideas--i know i've commented inappropriately myself at times on posts and i've tried to make ammends for those transgressions . i appreciate SOT's taking this to the forum--i will heretofore make the effort not to contend for any future CocoPuffs Awards..but i'm not making any promises- except to the mods--anyway that was the best laugh i had all day badcop--thanks and feel free to pick on me anytime

Thanks for the comments Badcop,

A good question. Why did Holly9000's entry receive so many votes?
Aside from the "payback" votes for votes Holly9000 cast that day and the votes to spite my comment on his post, it is my opinion that it is the result of one or both of these 2 reasons:

#1. Members today don't seem to be able to recognize good, clean photoshopping. Is it a lack of attention or a lack of image editing knowledge, I can't say for sure. An average voter today seems to pay no attention to or does not understand the finer points of manipulating the daily image and therefore does not recognize the lazy masking (fancy photoshop technique for cut and paste) and the screwed up lighting created from tilting each side of the ATV in a different direction. For those that don't understand, the easiest place to notice these lazy aspects of the post are around the wheels, in both lighting and masking.

Considering images other than Holly9000's, some other things I have seen of late that are overlooked is shadows, reflections and perspective. All pretty important, in my opinion to creating a good contest entry.

and/or #2. Members do not grasp the concept that this is an image manipulation contest website. The ones that make an effort to put together the best images they can on a given day are the ones the votes are meant for in my opinion. Just because I have 25 votes doesn't mean I have to spend them on friends or vote for posts that are a lazy attempt at a silly idea or even to vote for a new user to Photoshop who doesn't quite understand the techniques or have a style yet.

It's possible you don't care in the least, but, would you care to tell me why you think it received as many votes as it did?
Or do you have another question you would like to know my thoughts on?

disclaimer: idea and composition of the idea are key points to consider but we were discussing Holly9000's slinky image, which was a simpler idea and did not require much composition.

you know what SOT? you're right..i didn't even notice the problems with the wheels till you just mentioned it..i only wish you could have started out by suggesting these changes to me instead of just going after the "voteworthyness" of the post itself..that doesn't insult me--it insults the people who voted for me and that's not right..why should they feel like they did something wrong when they cast a vote for me?..i've made tons of changes to my posts based on members suggestions as Gort,arcaico,Patre,Showcase and many others will attest....if you'd simply given me the oportunity to benefit in a timely manner from your obvious wisdom in this area..i might have been able to make a better chop and we both would have been happier(i think)..

you did not notice? How could you not?
Do you not know what a good mask (cut and paste) is or were you being lazy and figured you'd get enough votes the way it was?

i don't know..i'm so ashamed..lol..dude i'm human..what can i say? i didn't notice..i've only been at this for about three months now and i'm just not that good yet..i know ..but i try to get better everyday--i didn't start posting because i thought i'd get votes..i can see the kind of talent that posts here...but some days there's less entries..somedays my post is funny..somedays the freakin stars align and i get votes..other days i don't..who cares?..is someone paying us now for every vote we get? cause if they are i must've missed the announcement...the point is you could have helped..that's all i'm saying

I did help. You are welcome.

Now about this "who cares" business and votes,
When you play a game of checkers against a friend of yours, do you let your friend jump all over your pieces? Or you and a few friends have a pickup game of basketball. Do you not put your best game forth with fun and jabs all the time hoping to win bragging rights? When playing a video game against your friend, do you stand out in the open and let them shoot at you? Or do you practice and practice until you know all the secret hiding places and the best weapons to use?

I do not buy the arguement that people aren't posting for votes and don't care about votes. If you didn't care, you wouldn't bother.

i'm sorry to hear that you're unable to understand the motivation behind posting here other than to "get votes"..but i assure you it exists.let me tell you a story.Awhile back there was a kid in new york named Josh Waitzkin who was a child chess prodigy--after he got older he told about how when he was growing up his dad used to beat him so unmercifully at chess that he almost gave up..he said that had his dad not realized that he needed to win once in awhile and thrown a few games he would have given up--that kid finally ended up beating not only his dad but almost everyone else he ever played..but he wasn't born a champion..his talent needed to be nurtured.This site ,for me ,serves as that nurturing environment--i've been lucky--although i'm not that good i managed to get enough encouragement and votes from good people when i first started to make me want to continue on here.(Sure i didn't "deserve"to win anything at that point.to be honest noone was more suprised than me when i did win once..and i'm ALWAYS suprised if i get more than a few votes..lol.).but it made me want to get better,contribute and generally participate in the site on a positive level-including financially as i subscribed to advantage-that's good for the site--just ask jmh--the more new people that post and are encouraged enough to stay by votes and kind comments the better off we all are...sure we could have a site where a dozen or so killer choppers always get all the votes,and sit around all day congratulating each other, but i ask you honestly how long you'd stay around if it was like that?..more importantly..how long would the other people stay around?...new members need to be brought along till they realize their potential..i'm not saying toss away votes willy nilly..but an "encouragement" or effort vote means the world--i know it--noone's throwing the match or fixing the game--a vote isn't a win,it's a way to show support for a post an artist an idea-- and for that matter if all there was was a comment section i'd still have posted happily-to me a comment is worth way more than any vote.i would be lying if i said votes didn't mean anything to me at all..of course i'm happy when i get some votes.. ..but they're only a part of why i post..and really the least important part of all-my motivation has primarily been to improve my skills,and as i've progressed,i've gotten more votes(yes it's true--i was actually worse than i am now when i first started) --usually(not always but more often than not)the best posts get the most votes..the system seems to work..and other than annonymous posting it's probly as fair as it's gonna get--it's sad when the competitive aspect of this site overwhelms the true value of what's to be gleaned from this experience because if all you take away from this is "votes" you've truely lost the game

.


Tell the truth holly... In your mind's eye, you picture yourself reading that speech in front of a college auditorium. When you finish, a stunned hush falls over the crowd. You start walking out, dejected, but suddenly one brave student stands up and slowly applauds. He's followed by a hot girl who stands up and joins him. Then the whole auditorium erupts.

Later on, you're outside the auditorium getting into a cab and as you're about to close the door you hear a voice yell, "wait!". You look over and it's that hot girl who stood up to applaud. She looks at you and says "you forgot something in that auditorium.......my heart".

.

SOT, to answer the question, I think sometimes you come across a post that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this site is more about support than anything else.
Many people like encouragement more than the actual competition. There's a big network of encouragment here. It's not good for progress (when a teacher gives her student an "A" for scribbling gibberish on a crumpled piece of paper, that student will become an expert at scribbling gibberish) but I don't see it changing any time soon.
You also brought up "payback votes" and later went on to say that people shouldn't necessarily use all 25 of their votes. If payback votes exist (which they do), it stands to reason that using all your votes would do wonders for your own vpp.
What I'm trying to say is that, for the most part, people understand when they're voting for a Getty Images photographer - they just don't care.


Three last things -

1) People should never be blamed for the number of votes they received in a competition.
Everyone has good intentions and is just doing this for fun.

2) I find that almost always, the best few posts end up at the top.

3) I've found the name for my next band: "Scribbling Gibberish"

get out of my head!

I'm too busy--just pretend I chopped a
"Scion's Seal of approval" for this thread
and pasted it here.
There are a few folks who are very LOUDLY not saying
anything in this thread.
The Hilarity of that alone made all the reading worthwhile.

I don't have any problem with encouragement.
Is it not possible to have a contest that reflects more of the characteristics of a competition yet still allow for encouragement?

Honestly, I don't see it changing anytime soon either. I think this is why there are quite a few members that don't post anymore..Myself included. Those that used to create their own entries that stood on their own without relying on the whole of a pretty stock image. When all the stock images started winning, a lot of the people that were actually good at making images left.

We have been left with a contest full of scribbling gibberish, as you say and rather than encourage it, I would like to change it. Can't fault me for trying...

addressing your last three things Badcop -

1. I did not start with blaming anyone for the votes they received but blaming the voters for being duped by a stock image. Some agree, some don't

2. The best few posts do win, but whats the sense of competing if you create a decent image that is original only to have it beat out by a stock image. Not too much encouragement there.

3. I'm not sure I like it but, like just like you are free to vote as you like, it is your band so choose what name you like.

Thanks for the input. I've come to look for your input as I typucally find it to be enlightening and well thought out. The sarcasm does not go unappreciated either.

I didn't want to reply but I have to correct you SOT (feel like a teacher now )



I took the time to look at 20 pages of winners, that is 240 contest (it's easy, go to contests and then to winners only). Out of those 240 winning entries, in my opinion, I didn't find more than 11.....a lousy 11 posts that rely heavely on a stock image. So I do think badcop is right that the best ones always come up and win (and mostly they are not the cut and paste ones).

So you stand corrected

Hey that sounds like constructive integration to me! See we're on the same page :