Haha! Well since you're pulling that one - that's a pretty sweeping assumption that all believers in a God ignore science and fact (not to mention that "fact" is often a fluid concept anyway - much of what was considered "fact" by ancient pagan cultures has been disproved by science since the enlightenment just as much as myths perpetuated by the major faiths have been...)

Besides, just because pagan concepts have been around since the early days of mankind - a lot longer than many deity-based beliefs - doesn't mean there isn't a God or gods ... after all, when we are little children we're unaware of much of the world around us for years, but that doesn't mean the things we don't know about don't exist... and as the opponents of the Bible and Judeo-Christian religions are only too quick to point out, age in itself isn't proof of factual accuracy or truth...

"Paganism" in its various forms is just another form of religious belief (albeit a very old one), since it also depends on "faith" and specific interpretations of the world around us.

I believe....it is the weekend So..

I believe I will have a few Drinks...

Increases in knowledge, advancements in technology and medicine and so on, do not by themselves make mankind better. In the most advanced century so far - the 20th - we had two world wars, Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden (and of course all their followers) and so on and so on... We had Spanish flu, AIDS and now various drug-resistant forms of previously controllable diseases. In the 'civilised' western world in particular, we have huge levels of depression, dissatisfaction, disillusionment, cynicism, negativity, insecurity and so on.

Of course, many areas of life have improved over the centuries. But in many others, the problems and ethical challenges are still there, they've simply changed their nature. The human being is still basically the same with all his or her fears, mistakes, prejudices, arrogances, and other flaws. Look back through any historical period, from the most recent to the most distant and you'll see jealousy, revenge, suicide, madness, terror, violence, poverty, cruelty and so on - none of the massive advances/changes in human society has ended or even really stemmed all these things.
Everything we make or manipulate, while reflecting or enhancing our positive qualities, also reflects and enhances our negative and self-destructive ones too.



Once again, you're buying into the myth that the Bible says the Earth was made 6 thousand years ago. It doesn't, as even a cursory reading of Genesis makes clear.

Increases in knowledge, advancements in technology and medicine and so on, do not by themselves make mankind better. In the most advanced century so far - the 20th - we had two world wars, Hitler, Mussolini, Hirohito, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden (and of course all their followers) and so on and so on... We had Spanish flu, AIDS and now various drug-resistant forms of previously controllable diseases. In the 'civilised' western world in particular, we have huge levels of depression, dissatisfaction, disillusionment, cynicism, negativity, insecurity and so on.

Of course, many areas of life have improved over the centuries. But in many others, the problems and ethical challenges are still there, they've simply changed their nature. The human being is still basically the same with all his or her fears, mistakes, prejudices, arrogances, and other flaws. Look back through any historical period, from the most recent to the most distant and you'll see jealousy, revenge, suicide, madness, terror, violence, poverty, cruelty and so on - none of the massive advances/changes in human society has ended or even really stemmed all these things.

Everything we make or manipulate, while reflecting or enhancing our positive qualities, also reflects and enhances our negative and self-destructive ones too. As you hinted at above, think of the ever-present threats of nuclear holocaust, accident and/or global terrorism of the last 50 years or so, and of the potential for seriously altering the natural balance of our planet from mass industrialisation since the 18th century, for example. These are potential dangers that are far greater than anything we could have threatened our species or planet with years ago. And there are still more question marks over the what the long term effects of our lifestyles right now might be - large-scale electronic communication, disposal of toxic waste, bio-engineering, genetically modified food products...



Once again, you're buying into the myth that the Bible says the Earth was made 6 thousand years ago. It doesn't, as even a cursory reading of Genesis makes clear.

No, the 21st century hasn't been a full century yet. Only 7 years (or 6 depending on when you count it from ) - if we have a global war or get hit by a comet by 2020, then that might make the rest of the century turn out a lot less advanced than the 20th century was...

lol - At this rate I think BroChris is gonna come at me and MarxMan with his baseball bat for getting into "BASHING" territory here...



Ok, so you're saying we've 'advanced' so far in the last 6-7 years that we've undone/erased all of the issues I mentioned from the 20th century? I think you're getting a little caught up with the issue of dates and missing the crucial point of what I was saying. Oh well.



Well, that's a good start - as you said, a lot of so-called Christians don't even bother to do that. And let's face it, nor do most agnostics, atheists or sceptics. I'm surprised you managed to find "references to dates" in there though... you only begin to find references to dates well after the account of creation, and even then it's usually in the form of statements such as "in the tenth year of King Thingummybob of Someplace, while King Whossat was on the throne in Someotherplace"... events which interestingly, archaeologists have often found very accurate in recording settlement of cities and the reigns of ancient rulers.

I think there's a misunderstanding here about time periods and dates. The Bible mentions the lifespans of the early characters, but not fixed dates. The calculations made by some for working out the age of mankind (usually put about 4000 years) are made by working backwards from historically proven dates (eg the Jewish return from Babylonian exile) and subtracting the various lifespans back as far as Adam.

While it's possible to develop beliefs about the age of humankind only being a few thousand years old from that (and yes, I know that is controversial of course), it's not possible to show the Bible claims the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Nowhere does it indicate how long a time period elapsed between the creation of the universe and planets and when living creatures were created, nor how long between the different stages of creation - plants, animal kingdom, man, etc.

I would dissect the errors in the links you sent, but I think Chris wouldn't appreciate me waffling on any more on the specifics haha... suffice to say:
1) a lot of the assumptions made by critics about what creationism asserts are not actually what Biblical creation claims or states - they are misinterpretations put on it by some who claim to follow the Bible, and
2) for the same sort of reasons, lists of failed prophecies or predictions by those claiming to speak from God do not themselves prove the Bible false, especially since many of the claimed predictions themselves contradict what the Bible says (again, remember what I said about the RC Church and Galileo - a proper reading of the Bible supports Galileo's finding more than it does the then-Church teaching - that the earth is but one planet among many, "hanging on nothing", not the centre of the universe, or fixed in place by pillars, giant turtles, Atlas or any other ancient mythological belief)

I think I'd better stop now or I'll have used up my quota for all forum posts for the year...

You have to consider the fact that this is a line from the King James version of the Bible. It is in no way a perfect translation of the bible. Their are a number of translations for this peritcular line, for example: as the creeping snail that smears its track.. Quite a difference and far more realistic.

This illustrates the fact a bit where the problem is with people who live their life literally or based upon the writing in their version of a 'bible' (whether it be the OT, NT, Koran, or whatever book it may be).

The problem with lots of text in these books is that most of the original transcripts are lost, mistranslated or wrongly interpreted in the course of translating and copying.

I believe the earth was created in 7 literal days (morning and evening)
I don't know how old the earth is but I don't believe its billions of years old. I'd say 10,000 is pretty close.

Marx, You keep saying that dating disproves the biblical timeline.
How do you know that the dating is correct?
Carbon14 dating relys on the atmosphere being exactly the same then as it is today.
Seeing as live clams have been dated 27,000 years old and penguins 6,000 I dont think carbon dating is very accurate.

are u serious FF?

My point was something completely different. Not defending the bible or anything. Just pointing out your arguments were not valid as you were basing them on a particular translation. No more, no less.